So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

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So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:00 pm

Hehe... I'm sorry to throw these teasers out there but I really want to know what you guys think about this...? I have some ideas and would like to share yours too... have a good heads together... Wink

but no time at the moment to really sit down and get into it... I will do I promise...!!

in the meantime if you have some time what are your ideas?
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Topcat on Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:55 pm

If your skin is NOT sensitive to CO, then a 100% CO bar, if superfatted enough, is still highly cleansing even if it feels mild on your skin.

My 100% OO castile soap, now 6 months old, has an amazingly lovely, thick and creamy lather yet I still don't feel as clean using it than when I use any other soap. I am looking forward to using it in high summer to see how well it combats body odour. When I used it at 8 weeks cured (summer here) I really felt I developed body odour stronger and sooner than I usually do - and I am not a 'smelly'!
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Saltysteele on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:20 pm

lmao!! you're not a "smelly," Tanya??? lol!

i'm a guy, so i have no chance of not being a smelly, unfortunately. I have used my OM&H bars that i made using lindalu's recipe, which is 73% (I think) OO, and while it is very nice, i don't get the cleanliness i like out of it. not to say i don't get clean; it just doesn't pull the oils out of my skin as much as i would like it to (if that makes sense).

my sister uses it, and loves it. but, then again, there's the guy/girl thing, and her skin isn't as oily as mine is.

it is the ONLY bar I've made that hasn't included lard, and for my skin, i truly miss the lard when i'm using the OM&H bar. i might have to try a lard bar with the oatmeal, milk and honey. they smell wonderful; lightly sweet.
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:23 am

TC my original theory I think only applied in the winter... that was the deodorant theory... using soap right...

with the heat here I will not even attempt to try it...

the deo I'm using now is Nivea for Men and it is antibacterial because of the actions of silver ions... or so the say... from silver citrate... in formula but that is for another forum...
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Kellie on Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:18 pm

I can't use CO, but can see how it would work well for someone who could tolerate it and needed that much cleansing. I have some 18 month old castile that really rocks, but it is not my favorite soap.
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by ukihunter on Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:59 pm

I haven't had a chance to use a 100% CO bar so now (thanks to you guys) I will have to make one to try. I have tried a Castile that is 4.5 months old and I still don't like it. It is slimey to me. I want to like it but I don't so I will wait some more to try it again.

@Tanya - I cannot imagine you smelly!

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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:16 am

Where my thoughts were going is a difference in the actual amount of soap molecules in the same weight of bar...

Coconut soap has a higher % of shorter C12 fatty acids and Olive oil has a higher % C18 fatty acids in its makeup... the molecular weight of a C12 fatty acid soap molecule is lower than that of a C18 fatty acid soap molecule... more C12 soap molecules in the same amount of soap than C18 fatty acid soap molecules...

shhhhhhhh... secret... the cleaning activity of coconut soap is therefore higher than that of olive oil soap...

the mole amount of soap molecules in 100g of Coconut soap I worked out as an average of 0.44 mol/100 g CO soap and that of most other soaps an average of around 0.33 mol/100 g soap

to reduce the cleansing activity of the CO soap to a comparable level with other soaps you have to superfat it at about 20+ %

I bet you have not seen that one anywhere else...

This is not the only factor though... what could also be a factor with the soaps cleansing activity is its actual solubility in water...

the shorter fatty acid chain soap molecules being more highly soluble in water... longer chains being more insoluble...

here I have seen some conflicting information online though that I cannot really comment on...

the fact that shorter chains are more soluble makes more sense to me as that explains why coconut soap will even lather up in salt water... it has a higher solubility and will compete better with the NaCL already in solution than a soap with lower solubility...

so... there is a higher amount of soap molecules available in every coconut bar of soap compared to nearly all other soaps low in C12 and C14 fatty acids... but not only that... when washing with these soaps, also more of those available soap molecules, goes into solution to remove oil from whatever surface is being washed because of its higher solubility compared to that of say for example a tallow or palm soap...

Link: on soap and soap solubility...
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:30 am

so what I am also considering is that the skin sensitivity of CO oil is not caused by the CO oil itself... I am thinking more in the lines that the action of the soap once in solution is pretty much the same for all... but that the activity... the actual number of CO soap molecules in solution when using CO soap is so much higher... causing problems for people with problem type and sensitive skin... and that is why people who use salt bars with high CO in those soaps find their soaps to be so mild... the common practice is to use a superfat % of around 20% for salt bars... that high superfat reduce the number of available soap molecules to a number comparable to that of a 0% superfat but not lye heavy tallow/olive or palm soap...

further more the high free fatty acids/oils in the soap offer higher emoliency and added to that because of the salt concentration even less of the soap will go into solution than without the salt... the solubility of NaCL is higher still than that of CO soap...

explaining the mildness and surprising thing that many people who don't tolerate CO soap on their skin love CO salt bars...
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by funlovingfraggle on Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:52 pm

re: many people who don't tolerate CO soap on their skin love CO salt
bars...

Is this a fact ?


re: Castile not cleansing - try adding clay, this will also remove the slime factor Wink

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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:28 am

i personally have no problem with co soap or oil. . . I think what the point is is that it has a higher cleansing value and i was trying to understand why that would be. . . This higher cleansing is why i am thinking that some people do say that they don't like to use pure co soap. . . I tried to simply figure out a reliable way to get a cleansing value for the soap that could better be compared between different soaps. . . The currently used cleansing calculation is not satisfactory to me as used by soap calc and it was dropped in sm 3. . . Thats what got me thinking. . . Great tip for fighting the slime of castille. . . Thanks!


Last edited by rvan on Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ICS!)
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Saltysteele on Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:30 am

i agree; some soaps made with different oils definitely pull more oil from the skin than others. as i said with the bastille bar i made using 73% OO, does not dry my skin out as much. in fact, my face still feels oily after using it. however, on areas that are typically dry (arms, back), it feels very nice after a shower. not itchy in the slightest, as opposed to my regular lard, co, oo and castor bar, which leaves my arms and back slightly itchy.

these are relatively speaking. store bought bars leave me unable to stop itching due to the dryness for at least half an hour. it's like someone sprinkled itch powder on me.
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:16 am

about your question about people who don't like CO soap loving CO saltbars...

and finding them much milder... to be honest I have never used one... but this is based on conversations of people before on how amazed they were at how differently the felt about using those two... normal CO in soap and a CO saltbar... again I was trying to think of why they might have made that observation...

maybe that is a pretty cool experiment...?
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:20 am

salty what are the fatty acid %ages for your regular lard, co,oo and castor bar on soapcalc and what is the properties soapcalc gives for that particular recipe?

I want to see based on my way of calculation what the cleansing factor of that soap would be?

you don't have to give me the secret %ages of the formula... just the props and fatty acid profile of the soap...
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Saltysteele on Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:05 pm

roughly 49% lard, 23.5% CO and 23.5% OO, and the remainder being castor.
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by beachbabiesbath on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:31 pm

I love my salt bars made with 100% co. AND I love me some lard soaps
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by funlovingfraggle on Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:56 pm

From my own discussions and experimentations most people who are intolerant to saponified CO generally are so even in very
small amounts, and still find it irritating in a salt bar ..

Furthermore they have found the salt bars to be especially drying, as opposed to causing actual itching & rashes like the CO can .. I however, seem to be the exception to the rule - hence my surprise at it!

That's why I questioned the statement that many who can't use CO 'love' them, because it goes against everything I have read and the personal experiences of my family & friends etc .. In fact reading back through years of various forum archives 'most' people (with no CO issues) still only use them during summer due to them being drying ..

I very much appreciate the discussion and research you are doing though .. So to add to this, still in relation to Salt Bars, I believe it is specifically the synergy of combined oils, for example: 80% CO + 20% OO makes a very different bar than 80% CO + 20% RBO, or 80% CO + 20% Shea .. I have no trouble with the former so long as it contains 50-100% salt and at least 16% SF, the second two however (with the same salt & Sf %) leave me itching till I bleed .. Hemp is another I can use, and Canola (as part or all of the OO %), but certainly not 100% CO .. And I know that Kellie (also intolerant to CO) doesn't use much in her salties either ..

Of course the unsaponified Oil is another animal all-together and I love it neat, or in lotions, scrubs, balms etc ..

I feel like I should apologise for steering this topic off course - sorry! To answer your original question, the difference in my opinion is the ability to strip oils, which is why Coconut oil is used in many commercial mechanical degreasers etc .. And that Olive has a high Oleic acid content which creates a colloidal mucilage when exposed to water, which can be very soothing to sensitive/irritated skin Wink

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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by riaan on Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:55 am

i absolutely love what you bring and brought to the topic. . . Please don't apologize for steering the thread in any direction. . . When i have an opinion or idea. . . I want to develope it and if it is incorrect i want to know that. . . What my starting point was was trying to find a better way to express the cleansing value of a soap recipe. . . not just as an expression of its lauric and myristic % because that leaves all other soaps without out of play. . . And i'd love to hear more of your experience and ideas too . . . And if i'm running up the wrong tree i need to know for sure!
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Topcat on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:45 am

I have a soaping friend who cannot use my soap which has 30% CO and 6% sf; yet she can use (and loves!) 100% CO salt bars with a 20% sf....

I will have to ask another friend who I know has sensitivity to CO to try a salt bar to see how her skin reacts to it.

I personally find a 100% CO 20% sf soap to be a little bit drying in winter, not summer, yet I do find my salt bars to be perfectly fine to use in winter...?
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by funlovingfraggle on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:29 am

Maybe I'm not a freak of nature after all then *damn* lol ..

Can I ask, do you use Table or Sea Salt Tanya ? I'm noticing a difference between them too but need to do more experiments to be sure ..

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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by Topcat on Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:31 am

I use fine sea salt in mine so far and I have only used 80% of oil weight. I really want to try 50% in my next one though Smile
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Re: So what is the difference between that 100% CO bar of soap and your favorite Castille?

Post by SilverMaple on Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:00 pm

My skin can't handle CO in a soap much over 15% although some recipes can go up to 20. High-superfat salt bars are better, but still leave me feeling dry and itchy. Someone gave me a salt bar made with a 'regular' soap recipe and it still had amazing lather and left my skin feeling great. Sadly I lost contact with her and don't know what recipe she used.
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